James Chau: Can we begin by going back to last year, when you went to the United States twice to meet with friends and colleagues whom you hadn't seen since the start of the pandemic? What was that experience like for you?
Wang Jisi: I went to the states twice last year, in February and March and then in November for the whole month. First, I visited Washington D.C. and New York City, the Harvard University and in November I went to Yale University and then Washington, D.C. and New York City. So I met with a lot of my old friends and some younger colleagues I have never met before. They were very pleasant visits. We had candid and friendly conversations.
James Chau: How did this compare with what you had known about America before the pandemic?
Wang Jisi: Before the pandemic we did not talk too much about the problems in the United States, and they didn't talk too much about the questions they would ask in China. For instance, in the United States, I was faced with the question of whether it was safe to travel in the United States. It was so-called Asian hate. So, walking along the streets, I would not feel entirely safe. And I also saw some signs of shoplifters in CVS selves and elsewhere. And there were signs of Black Lives Matter in the streets. And they asked me questions about the COVID situation in China, internal problems, what was happening in Beijing and Shanghai and lockdowns here and there. That was new as compared with the old days. In the old days, we would be talking about basically the bilateral relationship and the world situation at large.
James Chau: Let's go to Washington, D.C., where the Center for Strategic and International Studies hosted an event called “A Beijinger in Washington” — which is, of course, you — and you unpacked the significance of academic collaboration and communication. Can we anticipate a return to the level of exchanges and partnerships both countries once did so very well?
Wang Jisi: Well, my counterpart in person was my friend Scott Kennedy at CSIS. So I gave a talk on Beijing in D.C. and he talked on China about his experience in Beijing, the topic being called “A Washingtonian in Beijing.” So we exchanged experiences very effectively. Of course, we also encountered difficulties. He had to stay in a quarantine hotel in Beijing for two weeks. So these were the experiences we were talking about. Of course, we also talked about our bilateral relationship.
James Chau: Well, more widely, you always speak about America in terms of friendships and the friends that you have, when you finally got a chance to sit down together, even share a meal together. What did your American friends tell you? And what did you share with them in return?
Wang Jisi: Well, they were very interested in meeting me because they, of course, had a lot of different information sources — the Western media, conversations on the internet with their Chinese counterparts. But they could not replace person-to-person interaction. So they asked me a lot of questions directly. For instance, what I have observed in Beijing. I talked about the [Communist Party of China] Party Congress, and what people were thinking about afterward, and the economic situation, and whether we had enough to eat when we are locked down in the city — things like that. And I also asked them about the implications of the midterm election in the United States, who would be the U.S. presidential candidates in the coming years. So the conversations went very well, but it was a serious conversation about China and the United States and elsewhere in the world.
James Chau: But since you mentioned food, just that what American cuisine did you enjoy while you were out there? What did you miss most?
Wang Jisi: Food? We're having sandwiches of course. Yes, I had a dinner party with CSIS. A number of celebrities attended, like John Hamre, president of CSIS, and my old friends. I saw a lot of old friends — Ken Lieberthal and other scholars, China scholars and international scholars. And in Washington I had dinner. U.S. State Department officials joined us, and Chinese diplomats also joined us in Washington.
James Chau: Professor Wang, we're seeing the world returning to a rapid series of global events, notably the G20, where leaders from around the world, including the United States and China, finally got to meet each other in person. Are there signs of improving relations for these two countries?
Wang Jisi: On my second trip, I attended a conference in Abu Dhabi, and I went to Berlin as a final stop. So I chatted with my American European counterparts and people from the Middle East. Unsurprisingly, not many people were highly optimistic about global trends. They talked not only about the pandemic but of possible global economic recession, debt crises in a number of developing countries and, of course, the Ukraine conflict and the geopolitical tensions in the Middle East, or in some African countries. So that is not a rosy picture, as we saw before the pandemic. And the people were also talking about social disturbances in a number of countries, in Europe as well. So we are faced with more difficulties. In the [CPC] Party Congress report, I saw a number of “deficits” mentioned — such as the peace deficit, development deficit, global governance deficit and other deficits. These are threatening the world's peace and prosperity. So we are faced with a number of difficulties we have never experienced before.
James Chau: There's a popular expression among the Chinese which is “Find the right way for China and the U.S. to get along with each other.” What is the right way your mind — or has it indeed been found?
Wang Jisi: Talking about the right way, I think in the Chinese mindset, or in Chinese eyes, the right ways should include all the corrections of U.S. policies and attitudes toward China. We hope the United States will lift trade tariffs, will lift sanctions against Chinese companies like Huawei and TikTok. The United States should stop encouraging independence forces in Taiwan. It should cut down arms sales to Taiwan. And the United States should stop interfering in China's domestic affairs in Hong Kong and Xinjiang. So there are a number of things that we hope the United States will do. But I don't have hope that they will find a way to correct these mistakes. They don't think they are mistakes. They blame China for the deterioration of the relationship.
James Chau: We always assume that the China-U.S. bilateral relationship is the most important in the world. Is that necessarily still the case, especially when China is building inroads with other regions, including the Middle East and the Gulf countries, for example?
Wang Jisi: In my conversations with international observers, nobody would deny the importance of U.S.-China relations, because the U.S. is the number-one economy and China is number two. They are also the most important military powers and geopolitical actors. The question is whether the two countries can get along in getting back to the old days when they had much sectoral cooperation between and sought mechanisms of global governance and coordination.
James Chau: For the U.S. and China, there are diminishing incentives to move past the lowest point in their modern relationship. So what should they do next that would create hope in all of us?
Wang Jisi: As a scholar and as a retired professor, I think my main job is to find out where the problems lie, and what are the root causes of the problems. If I could, I would predict the trajectory of the U.S.-China relationship in future. It would be too presumptuous for me to say that governments should do this and do that. To advise the governments is not my job. So I hope they will have a better way in dealing with each other. But I don't have any specific advice to give them.
James Chau: What do you forecast for 2023 with a sense of hope? Is being tempered by interconnected crises that are again testing the global system and its ability to prosper among the conditions?
Wang Jisi: I think in 2023 there will be some restoration of trade relations, personnel exchanges, face-to-face meetings between the two societies. And I hope I will have more chances to talk with the Americans if they come to China. But this will not change the overall situation. For instance, my colleagues in my old field and in other fields, caution against travel to the United States, fearing that they will not be well received. And my American colleagues have some similar concerns. If they want to come to China, they weigh how long they will have to stay in a quarantine hotel. I said, “No, there is nothing like that anymore." But they might say, well, we are afraid of being harassed. Our devices, our cell phones and laptops might be searched. So the atmosphere is not that good as compared with many years ago. So this is my major concern.
In 2023, there will be some good signs in societies and in the U.S.-China relationship. But it will take a long time to restore the traditional practices between the two societies. I hope, for instance, that consulates in Chengdu and Texas will be restored and that they will begin to function. I hope there will be fewer travel restrictions. But I'm afraid that these things are still obstacles for the bilateral relationship. I'm most concerned about Taiwan and technological competition between the two countries.
James Chau: Professor Wang, you have a new initiative called “Stories of a Cold War,” which looks at the human experiences during a really complex time in modern history. What do you hope to achieve with this initiative, and why do it now?
Wang Jisi: Actually, I did not propose starting a new program on what I call the Stories of the Cold War. It is a platform called “Kanlixiang” or "See Ideals.” They proposed that I should do an oral program with them, as I speak to some devices and they record that and then I will tell the Cold War stories. I did not have many experiences during the Cold War, but I have stories to tell.
I had a lot to share with audiences — the Cold War history between China and the United States, and also between United States and the Soviet Union. What are the lessons we should draw from the Cold War is the central question. I'm still learning because I have memories about the Cold War. And when I did the research, I learned a great deal more details. Yesterday, I did a program on the Middle East wars between the Palestinians and Arabs and Israel. It was very interesting, but also very sobering. I also was very surprised to see the killings and the hatred between the two sides.
James Chau: China's most recent ambassador to the United States is now its newest Foreign Minister. As Qin Gang steps forward onto the world stage, how will he use his experience and skill to shape China's position on Washington?
Wang Jisi: In my experiences in Washington, D.C., I met him twice and we had long conversation over many hours on the bilateral relationship. I found Ambassador Qin Gang — or Foreign Minister Qin Gang — to be a very lovely person. I liked him a lot. He was honest and direct. He had experience in foreign affairs, and he got to know more about the United States when he was ambassador. So I hope that as the foreign minister he will keep the memories of his experiences in the United States. He played sports with Americans —common people. And he had conversations, not only with politicians and government officials but also people in the business community and scholars. So I think he had rich experience with the American people. So I think it's a positive sign.
But at the same time, I don't think foreign ministers and U.S. State Department officials are the most decisive in shaping up the relationship. What is more important is the domestic political background and the atmosphere in the two countries. When I look at the U.S.-China relationship, I have to look at their domestic surroundings, how people think, how people in America perceive China. They are very important.
