在香港參加“中美藝術對話”期間，北京尤倫斯當代藝術中心館長田霏宇接受了中美交流基金會總裁周建成的採訪，反思了在中美互不信任日益加深的時代，藝術如何成為難得的交流空間。田霏宇分享了當代藝術在中國的發展歷程，以及像安迪·沃霍爾（Andy Warhol）這樣的美國藝術家為何能引起中國觀眾的共鳴，以及自己的跨文化生活經過多年的沉澱和共同創作而成為一份“禮物”。

周建成：

田霏宇，很高興與您交談。我們認識多年，當時北京正以各種不同的方式真正開放。在那段時間裡，您成為了北京尤倫斯當代藝術中心（UCCA）的負責人，並在過去的14年里一直擔任這家全球知名機構的館長。您從事哪些工作？在溝通不暢、對話不多的時代，您是如何做到如此獨特的？

田霏宇：

我認為這個世界和這個我有幸從事的領域最寶貴的一點就是，你很少遇到會斷然說藝術不好的人。所以，藝術不知何故成為了一個可以表達不同觀點和想法的平台，每個人都擁有一定的表達能力，這讓我們能夠探討有時遠遠超越美學範疇的問題。而實際上，尤其是在過去的十年里，這個領域吸引力已經急劇擴大。我認為這是過去40年來經濟發展的一個滯後指標。現在，從這一代人的角度來看，有些人從小就接觸藝術，或者曾在國外生活過，但對他們來說，在自己的家鄉建立一個紮根中國、但又兼具全球審美和抱負的當代藝術機構似乎是理所當然的。這就是我們，也是我們努力的方向。

周建成：

您策划過無數展覽，包括最近舉辦具有里程碑意義的安迪·沃霍爾作品展。例如，當您漫步在尤倫斯當代藝術中心的展廳和展廳視野中，看到年輕的中國藝術家或年長的中國觀眾正在欣賞一位偉大的美國藝術家的作品時，您認為這作品向他們揭示了怎樣的美國經歷及見解？這又如何影響着身為21世紀中國人的他們？

田霏宇：

我總是試着放下我的美國身份，單純思考尤倫斯當代藝術中心 （UCCA）此刻最需要向公眾呈現哪些藝術家的作品。當然，他們中有很多是中國人，也有很多是美國人，還有很多來自世界各地的創作者。但總能產生一種特殊的共鳴，無論是安迪·沃霍爾，還是我們剛剛開幕的韓裔美國藝術家安妮卡·易（Anicka Yi）的展覽，或是去年舉辦，偉大的概念藝術家勞倫斯·韋納（Lawrence Weiner）個展。當你意識到這些同樣來自美國的藝術家作品中，蘊含著創新、勇氣和一種正在進行的實驗。我不是大使館的人，也不負責推廣國家，但我確實感到一種額外的喜悅，因為你知道，來自我出生地的一些東西，能夠在我後來定居的地方被看到和分享。

周建成：

這種大膽、敏銳的意識和實驗精神，在公共政策領域並不常見。事實上，我們正看到世界各地都從這些價值中退卻，在公共政策領域也是如此，在中美關係中也是如此。那麼，我們是否還能找到某種基於證據的希望，證明藝術與文化仍可作為一種非傳統干預和突破途徑？你認為創作者是否意識到，他們在自身專業中具備這樣的力量？

田霏宇：

我認為我們有時確實需要更多這種自覺。因為顯然，任何專業人士都常常關注細節。燈光該如何布置？展覽動線如何設計？作品如何借閱？如何讓藝術家感到滿意？如何規劃周邊活動？我常說的一句話是，藝術和藝術機構在很多方面就像經營其他任何生意一樣，對吧？你有投入和產出；有收入和成本等等。我認為它的不同之處在於，我們非常幸運能夠為這個空間留下某種魔力。無論是在觀眾的親身體驗層面，你真正希望的是確保它能夠吸引廣泛的觀眾，但我真正希望的是，在一千人甚至一萬人中，有那麼一個人因為這場展覽而徹底改變了人生。也許他們會因此而做出一些完全出乎意料的事情。我不知道他們是誰，也不知道那是什麼，也許只有多年以後我們才會發現那是一個關鍵時刻，他們能夠遇到一些能與他們對話、能給予肯定的作品，並因此被帶往某個未知但意義重大的方向。

周建成：

您認為您自己所經歷的中美關係中，哪些方面與今天特別相關？

田霏宇：

這一直是一種榮幸。我的意思是，我從未忘記，這對我來說並非一個理所當然的選擇，而能夠獲得如此程度的接觸機會，實屬一份珍貴的禮物。某種程度上，我亦有為這份禮物作出投入和貢獻。我的意思是，我投入了精力，學習了語言，多年來在各個層面都付出了巨大的努力。但與此同時，隨着近年來我們兩國與15、20年前相比隔閡越來越大，這份禮物對我來說越來越像是一種天賜。我非常感激我所學到的一切，從與我共事的藝術家、與我樂於結交的同事、與我的朋友以及我生活中的其他人身上。我認為，能夠在如此高水平上、如此長久地與一個地方互動，真的是一種天賜。

周建成：

今天很高興與您交談，並與您攜手籌備此次中美藝術對話。非常感謝。

Philip Tinari, Director of UCCA Center for Contemporary Art in Beijing, reflects on art as a rare space for exchange at a time of growing U.S.-China mistrust. In conversation with CUSEF President James Chau, he shares how contemporary art has evolved in China, why American artists like Andy Warhol resonate with Chinese audiences, and how his own cross-cultural life has become a “gift” shaped by years of immersion and shared creativity.

James Chau:

Philip Tinari, it is great speaking with you. We've known each other for a number of years, when Beijing was really opening up in many different senses. And during that time, you became and for the last 14 years, head of a really incredible global institution in Beijing called UCCA, Center for Contemporary Art. What do you do and how are you able to work so uniquely at a time where miscommunication and dialogue doesn't really happen?

Philip Tinari:

I think one thing that's such a gift about this world and this field that I've been so lucky to work in, is that you meet very few people who would categorically say that art is bad. So, somehow art becomes this place where different opinions and ideas can be expressed, and everyone has a certain shield of expression that allows us to talk about questions that sometimes go far beyond aesthetics. And what's really happened, especially in the last 10 years, is that that field of attraction has just widened dramatically. And I like to think it's sort of a lagging indicator of economic progress that's happened really over the last 40 years. Now, generationally, you have people coming into their adulthood who have been exposed to art from a young age, or have spent time outside of China, but to whom it seems perfectly natural that there should be a contemporary art institution that is rooted in China, but that is global in its aesthetics and in its ambitions, right in their home city. And that's who we are and who we strive to be.

James Chau:

You've led innumerable exhibitions, including, I think quite recently, a landmark exhibition featuring the works of Andy Warhol. When you walk through the halls and the vistas of an exhibition space at UCCA, for example, and you see young Chinese or older Chinese looking into the work of a great American artist, what is it do you think that is revealed about the American experience to them, and how does it reflect on them as Chinese in the 21st century?

Philip Tinari:

I'm always trying to take a step back from my American-ness and to think just about at UCCA, who are the artists we really need to be showing to the public now. And of course, many of them are Chinese, and many of them are American, and many of them are from everywhere else in the world. But there is always this special extra resonance, whether it's Andy Warhol or an exhibition we've just opened with a Korean-American artist, Anicka Yi, or last year the great conceptual artist, Lawrence Weiner. When you think that these are also Americans whose work we're showing, and there's an innovation, and there's a boldness, and there's an experimentation that's happening. And I'm not from the embassy. I'm not in the business of promoting the nation, but I do feel this kind of second order delight that you know something from this place that I come from is able to be seen and to be shared in this place that I've gone on to make my home.

James Chau:

This boldness and sense and level of experimentation is not necessarily shared by those working in public policy. In fact, at this time, we're seeing a withdrawal from that around the world, but also within that, also in the United States-China relationship. Where is the note of evidence-based hope here that we can continue exercising art and culture as a pathway for non-traditional interventions and breakthroughs? And do you think that creators are aware that they have that power within their profession?

Philip Tinari:

I think we sometimes need to have more of that awareness, because obviously, as any professional one is often focused on the details. How should something be lit? How should an exhibition flow? How do you borrow the works? How do you keep the artist happy? How do you program around the exhibition? One thing I always say is that art and an art institution, in so many ways, it. Like running any other business, right? You have inputs and outputs; you have revenues and you have costs and all of that. I think the level on which it's different is that we are so lucky to be able to leave this space for certain kind of magic. Whether that's on the level of the lived experience of the viewer, what you're really hoping for is making sure that appeals to a wide audience, but what I really am hoping for is that one person who's going to go in out of maybe 1000 or even 10,000 and the exhibition is going to completely change their life, and maybe they're going to go on to do something totally unexpected because of that. And I have no idea who they are or what that is, and maybe only years later we'll find out that that was this pivotal moment, that they were able to encounter something that spoke to them and that affirmed them and that took them in any direction.

James Chau:

What's an aspect of your own US-China story that you think is particularly relevant today?

Philip Tinari:

It's always been a privilege. I mean, I never have lost sight of the fact that this is not a logical place for me to have decided to make a life and a career, and that it's really a gift to have been allowed that level of access. It's a gift that I've contributed to in a way. I mean, I put in the work, I learned the language, and have made great efforts to work there for so many years, on many different levels, but at the same time, as our countries drift far apart compared to where they were 15 or 20 years ago, it almost comes to feel to me like more and more of a gift. I'm so grateful for all that I've learned from, from the artists I've worked with, from the colleagues I've been happy to have, from friends and others in my personal life. I think it's just such a gift to be able to engage with a place on that kind of a level, for that kind of a duration.

James Chau:

It's been a joy conversing with you today and working with you in the lead up to this US-China art dialogue. Philip Tinari, thank you very much.